Columbia University law professor Katherine Franke last appeared on Democracy Now! in January to discuss an attack on Columbia’s campus targeting pro-Palestinian student activists with a foul-smelling liquid that led to multiple hospitalizations. Following her interview, Franke now faces termination after two Columbia professors filed a complaint against her claiming she had created a hostile environment for Israeli students; she also became a target for Republican lawmakers.

Franke joins Democracy Now! to discuss the campaign against her, the ongoing crackdown on pro-Palestine activism at Columbia and more. “There’s an overreaction by the university, a weaponization of the disciplinary system against students and faculty in ways that in my over 40 years at Columbia I have never seen,” she says.

We are also joined by attorney Kathleen Peratis, who is representing Franke along with the Center for Constitutional Rights after she quit her former law firm, Outten & Golden, because it dropped Franke as a client, saying she was too controversial. “What happened at Outten & Golden is the kind of thing that’s happening all over,” says Peratis.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan Gonzalez.

As we continue our look at the academic war on dissent on college campuses, we’re joined now by another acclaimed professor, who has long been outspoken in her support of Palestinian rights and could lose her job at the Columbia University School of Law after she was denounced in a congressional hearing and more. Columbia University School of Law professor Katherine Franke is a member of the executive committee of the Center for Palestine Studies, on the board of Palestine Legal.

In April, then-president of Columbia University Minouche Shafik was grilled at a congressional hearing on allegations of antisemitism on campus by New York Republican Congressmember Elise Stefanik.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK: Let me ask you about Professor Katherine Franke from the Columbia Law School, who said that all Israeli students who have served in the IDF are dangerous and shouldn’t be on campus. What disciplinary action has been taken against that professor?

MINOUCHE SHAFIK: I agree with you that those comments are completely unacceptable and discriminatory.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK: But I’m asking you: What disciplinary action has been taken?

MINOUCHE SHAFIK: She has been spoken to by a very senior person in the administration, and she has said that that was not what she intended to say.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK: Do you see the concern that speaking to these professors is not enough, and it’s sending a message across the university that this is tolerated, these antisemitic statements from a position of authority in professors in the classroom is tolerated?

AMY GOODMAN: That was in April. Two Columbia University professors then claimed professor Katherine Franke had created a hostile environment for Israeli members of the Columbia community after she appeared on Democracy Now! in January to discuss a chemical attack on pro-Palestinian student activists at Columbia. Let’s go to some of that interview with Professor Franke.

KATHERINE FRANKE: Columbia has a program. It’s a graduate relationship with older students from other countries, including Israel. And it’s something that many of us were concerned about, because so many of those Israeli students, who then come to the Columbia campus, are coming right out of their military service. And they’ve been known to harass Palestinian and other students on our campus. And it’s something the university has not taken seriously in the past. But we’ve never seen anything like this. And the students were able to identify three of these exchange students, basically, from Israel, who had just come out of military service, who were spraying the pro-Palestinian students with this skunk water. And they were disguised in keffiyehs so that they could mix in with the students who were demanding that the university divest from companies that are supporting the occupation and the war, and were protesting and demanding a ceasefire. So we know who they were.

AMY GOODMAN: So, a number of the pro-Palestinian students who were hit with that chemical spray were hospitalized. After this interview, Columbia professor Franke now faces termination after two Columbia professors filed a complaint against her with Columbia’s Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action. She’s now represented by attorney Kathleen Peratis and the Center for Constitutional Rights. For decades, Kathleen Peratis was a senior partner at Outten & Golden. And she, along with the law firm, represented Professor Franke. But Peratis resigned from the law firm a few weeks ago, following the firm’s sudden decision to terminate Franke as a client, saying she was too controversial. They’re both joining us now.

Welcome to Democracy Now! Professor Franke, let’s begin with you. You’re facing termination at Columbia School of Law?

KATHERINE FRANKE: It’s possible, Amy. That’s on the table and has never been ruled out. And in the climate in which we are now living, particularly at Columbia, things that used to be routine and expected are not happening. There’s an overreaction by the university, a weaponization of the disciplinary system against students and faculty in ways that in my 40 — over 40 years at Columbia I have never seen. So, I — inshallah, that will not happen; I will not be terminated. And I fully expect I’ll be exonerated and found — as your audience just saw, I have not said antisemitic things about Israeli students. But it’s hard to know what’s going to happen. We have a new administration, a new president. I’m hoping for the best with her, but I don’t know.

AMY GOODMAN: So, Kathleen Peratis, if you can explain what happened? You’ve been representing Katherine Franke, your law firm, Outten & Golden, which you’ve been a senior partner at for many years.

KATHLEEN PERATIS: Katherine became a client in February shortly after the charges were filed against her, internal charges, frivolous charges, in my opinion. But in these days, frivolous charges are weaponized. We’ve been processing it, negotiating, engaging with the investigators. And as Katherine became more and more high-profile, more and more controversial, as our institutions have been failing us all over the place, my law firm, I believe, also failed us by deciding that Katherine was too controversial, and suddenly, over my objection, terminated their representation.

AMY GOODMAN: So, you’re still representing her?

KATHLEEN PERATIS: I am, but my firm isn’t.

AMY GOODMAN: And you’re not with your firm anymore?

KATHLEEN PERATIS: I quit.

AMY GOODMAN: You’re a Jewish attorney.

KATHLEEN PERATIS: I’m Jewish.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Professor Franke, I wanted to ask you — you mentioned that you’ve been a part of the Columbia community now for more than 40 years. Could you compare the climate right now at universities like Columbia to past uprisings of students or protests in previous decades?

KATHERINE FRANKE: Well, Juan, you know Columbia and its history and proud history of being a place where students protested around a wide range of current events, whether it was during your era in the ’68 protests against Vietnam or racism on campus or domestically, or, more recently, students have protested around divestment, the university’s divestment from fossil fuels, creating a Black studies department, the Iraq wars, DACA, you know, the ending of DACA by the Trump administration, South African apartheid. Columbia has always been a platform for students to engage the world, learn about the world, be critical analysts of what’s happening in their world, both in the classroom and outside the classroom.

And what we’re seeing now is that the university will no longer tolerate protests and critical engagement. I think it’s important to recognize the problem here is not just what’s happening in, like, the images you’re seeing here of protests outside the buildings, but they’re also regulating what we can do inside the buildings. They’re monitoring our syllabi. I have a colleague who was fired because he had the nerve to bring a settler-colonial analysis to the Israeli project, the occupation of Palestinians — something that is done routinely in academic settings. He was told, “No, that’s a step too far. We can’t talk that way about Israel or Palestine.” And he was terminated. So, not only is the university allowing itself to be weaponized by the right-wing conservative politicians in — excuse me, in D.C. in ways that are squelching and then punishing student protest, but the faculty are now experiencing it, as well.

And I have to say, this is what I fear for this fall, is a new kind of surveillance, a new kind of chilling of how we teach our classes. And then the students who are in our classes actually go to the university and drop a dime, if you will, but complain about us, because we have the nerve to mention Palestine in our classes. And I know several colleagues who are under investigation right now for the fact that they incorporated into their courses readings that had to do with Israel-Palestine. And the students said, “Oh, that made me feel uncomfortable, and therefore I’m going to file a complaint against you that you are antisemitic.” Almost all of these professors are Jewish professors who actually are experts in things like the Holocaust, in things like collective trauma. So, the readings were relevant.

But, Juan, our campus has become unrecognizable. I want to invite you back to spend some time on campus and for you to see how it has transformed.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, I’d also like to ask Kathleen Peratis if you could share with us some more of what happened within your law firm, the idea that a powerful law firm even is now afraid to tackle issues related to individuals accused of some wrongdoing in terms of Palestine.

KATHLEEN PERATIS: I don’t want this to be about me or my law firm. I want it to be about Katherine. But what happened at Outten & Golden is the kind of thing that’s happening all over. My firm prides itself on representing employees who get in trouble at work, accused of doing things that they didn’t do. That’s exactly what’s happening with Katherine. But because of what’s happening in Israel-Palestine, even my law firm is ditching clients who have a righteous claim. And it’s sad. It’s disappointing. And unfortunately, as I said, our institutions are failing us.