Wong Tai Sin Taoist Temple, run by the Sik Sik Yuen foundation, has as its abbot 75 year-old Lee Yiu-fai. The abbot has been running the temple for 10 years now and has made some changes, revamping the rules of membership besides modernising some of the procedures with up-to-date technology, an example being how to access devotees zodiacal information as it relates to their personalised celestial moment.
However, this was not the reason a group of Siloists were visiting Wong Tai Sin – January 31, 2014 – rather, to ask the current state of Taoism and its traditional involvement with the arts of longevity and alchemy.
Eduardo Gozalo interviewed the abbot, giving a brief introduction to his fellows on the recently completed China trip undertaken for the same reasons and questions.
By way of introduction Lee Yiu-fai said: This is the most popular Taoist temple in Hong Kong and in recent years following the easier access of Hong Kong to general tourism from China visitor numbers have increased to much greater numbers, mostly southern Chinese, and nowadays on average 10,000 people visit the temple every day.
“There are hundreds of Taoist temples scattered throughout Hong Kong but we distinguish our temple by being a charitable organisation, we are non-profit, and no member of our association is allowed to take a single cent from the visiting public. We are volunteers. Our membership comes from all walks of life, from grassroots to high fliers – lawyers, doctors and the like. Street hawkers are among our membership.
“I became chairman 12 years ago and before my time new members had to be introduced from the board, simple as that, but things have changed now. Today, anyone can apply. We do a background check and then it’s a study period of a year or two until they pass the exam. I am the master for those studies. This new way was begun eight years ago.”
Eduardo Gozalo: Firstly, thank you very much for this interview. By way of introduction we are coming from Spain, making studies on alchemy and its relations with Taoism. We have been going around China interviewing different people, in Beijing, in Szechuan, and other places and our goal is to get to know external alchemy as we understand that it has likely ceased from the time of Sung Dynasty. We question if this kind of study really disappeared and we also want to know about the internal works, how the Taoists try to reach for immortality and just how is the situation now for Taoism, we want to learn all about this.
Lee Yiu-fai: First you have to understand our history starting around 4,000 years ago… My own opinion is, unlike other religions where they have one master, one source for the spiritual inspiration and one doctrine – talking about a founder, that one you could say teaches his own theory with his own regulations. This is how it is in Christianity, in Buddhism, in Islam. In Taoism there is no such.
It is said that Lao Tsu is the first but that’s wrong, in actual fact Taoism started in different parts of China, in different places as in our ancient times people worshipped all kinds of things, trees, rivers, mountains, fire – the Chinese were like that. China is so big with everyone worshipping different things and in the Chinese mind the individual had those particular images. In some place, if there was a hero – a general say – and he passed away then he became a god. So, even 2000 years ago everything was mixed.
Then, one Zhang Daoling consolidated all of the writings of Taoism, put it all together, and he was the one who followed Lau Tzu’s [Laozi] ideas – and he is not a god either! Mr Zhang and his grandson created this amalgamated Taoism which became the religious body as it is now, from thousands of years ago.
Some visitors come here to Wong Tai Sin and ask how Taoism compares to Christianity and I say there is no comparison but add that I respect the Christian bible. Here we have so many gods and people are attracted to the complex of Taoism, some even say they want to have magical powers. These ideas of Taoism from olden days have been used to fool the uneducated, the superstitious, farmers and the like, those making use of Taoism would burnt papers for sick people to make them well and do things like that.
But, besides all that, it is true that some ancient Taoists were great chemists and that’s why they could make spiritual medicines. They were famed for making the kind of medicines that increased sexual potency and when it came to king’s and those of the top rank that might have hundreds of wives, this was a boon. So they made these kind of medicines to keep those kings happy, especially during the Tang Dynasty. This gave reason for the kings to built Taoist temples everywhere.
So, first understand that Taoism is very complicated, unlike Christianity with its one bible and one teaching.
Thing is, in Taoism, the idea is to never try and fight or argue for yourself, or for your own benefit, and one must tolerate others. You can see in politics it is usual that one politician does not like the other’s policies but we of the Tao must tolerate others. Then there is our interest in eternity. That is why I welcome different types of believer from wherever in the world as we are all under the same roof, we are all human beings.
Now, 99 percent of those who join our temple want a nice life, so they can make money but not by trying to fool the uneducated and in fact that’s why China government has one department to control all religions and indeed they have different units for the different faiths: Christianity plus Catholics, Buddhist, Islamic and Various. If you go into China under one of these headings and the authorities invite you to dinner well you will find you have some stranger at the table, well he is from the government!
Communists do not believe in any religion but now they see big problems with religious groupings. Eleven years ago a Buddhist affiliated brand called Falun Gong had a huge crowd of its supporters surround a government office building protesting a policy which they seen as being against religious freedom – some say the founder, another Lee, had the USA as a supporter!
This alarmed the government.
Religious groups are therefore under government regulation. As for the Catholics, there is disagreement with Rome so relations are not so friendly; with Islam there is a problem because in China’s east there is an independence movement; and the Buddhists have the Dalai Lama also wanting to be independent as Tibet. All this creates havoc. However, as Taoists we just accept our belief and do not argue nor try to control things.
When the Communists took charge they commandeered all the churches and temples and also Taoist places of worship and turned them into clinics, schools, and such service centres. But in these past recent years the government has begun to return those places and land to them, though it is up to the churches and us Taoists and other religions to rebuild but we are getting our places returned.
Nowadays China is much freer about religions, they are more open, but they do still keep a close eye on them, particularly the other religions but I can say the government is 30 to 40 percent more open to Taoism – though they don’t want rituals etc but are OK with the cultural aspects. Those people connected to religions are welcomed but you have to go through official channels.
Eduardo Gozalo: In the present, how do you practice Taoism, how is the internal work?
Lee Yiu-fai: Strictly speaking till ten years ago they didn’t try to teach or introduce Taoism, it was just come here, bow and contribute money, unlike Catholics who would go outside, talk to the people, and course that is strictly not allowed, to preach like, that but they did realise these teachings did influence people’s spirit.
However, there is no one form or method on how to go outside to express our Taoism, it all depends on the individual. If you want to learn about Taoism you have to follow the particular master, if he accepts you; if he does, he will teach.
Eduardo Gozalo: We visited Tung Bai Gong, a mountain retreat, where they say they make practices and we did see 30 or 40 monks doing exercises, do you know what kind of practice they are doing now?
Lee Yiu-fai: Taoism has 4,000 gods that means 4,000 kinds of practice. It’s just like in kung fu, wu dan, tai chi, so many forms. I cannot tell you what they practice. It’s like in the case of Guang Ti, the red faced god. He is very popular, this one is a general, a warrior, he did good deeds, was honest and loyal; after he became a god his disciples created rituals and ceremonies and hymns and they worshipped him and it becomes a sect, of Guang Ti. In the wider context things are very complicated, as in the rituals.
I study the old books and try to change everything into modern methods. Even the China government recognise this; first though they know I am not taking money for the services.
Eduardo Gozalo: I saw wu chin musical classes, some performing the martial arts, others were painting, another at the tea ceremony, different activities in the various temples. I see this as it is external. But what are they doing inside, are they doing the same things or different from each other. These internal practices, is it like in Tai Chi Chuan, how to develop the internal energy?
Lee Yiu-fai: That’s the breathing exercise, the internal airs, and in Taoism we learn this method and philosophy but we also learn about yin and yang, the positive and negative – these are two basics and that’s why so many practices may look similar with the breathing, the yin yang, all done for a long life.
The Buddhists say, once born you suffer so you try for the next generation – but Taoism says once you are born you must make your body well, and your life; live joyfully, keep the health and the happiness.
With yin and yang, daily life follows a sequence, follows Universe – go to bed 10pm; get up 6am! Taoism means to follow the natural. Taoists follow different kinds of movements. Tai Chi, like Yoga, even aerobic dance, no difference, many kind of practices. When I go to China, invited by government and other temples asking how to best run a temple under modern methods, when I see their ceremonies I don’t understand. There is the regular way and there are differences, you walk 500 metres and from temple A to temple B there are entirely different ways – the rituals, ceremonies, their practices, and their gods, so what can I say about general practices? Only the buildings look similar so there is no right or wrong in this, just individuals.
Eduardo Gozalo: What about offerings, the food for the dead, what about psychical substances?
Lee Yiu-fai: It’s a long story. Joss sticks, red candles – in Christianity it’s white candles. Some persons connected to the Taoists are in business, they must earn money for living, so they sell these items to the worshippers. Joss sticks are a kind of signal to your god, once you burn joss its like pressing a bell, this is the real meaning – I am here! But some people think there is food or other value in joss, but that’s wrong.
Different parts of China offer different goods to the gods. Here we do not allow roast pig, not to the gods, ok for people. We offer flowers, incense, candles and water – which is pure – and any kind of fruit, these are OK. Only five things. If I want to pay respect to the god these are what I lay down. Other temples are different with different things and I have nothing to say about that.
Eduardo Gozalo: What about alchemy, is this done these days?
Lee Yiu-fai: Only in relation to medicine and for general diseases but officially it is not allowed in China.
Eduardo Gozalo: what about spreading Taoism in the world?
Lee Yiu-fai: Likely in one or two years, we will have 300 or 400 people who know Taoism and if they are good people they might spread Taoism but it is unsure because the tendency is for people to push there own branch and say it’s the best. Overcome that tendency and then we can have Taoism in the future otherwise I do not see any brightness for Taoism as it is so complicated and different and in the past its proponents always argued, though now not so much as before.
On March 8 this year I will perform a big ceremony for the whole of Hong Kong when I will represent the hundreds of temples in Hong Kong. I have invited masters from China as well. The reason the government of China, from 2 or 3 years ago, invited me to do this is, primarily, because they understand our organisation is not profit making, and as we have only 300 members, and they know I have been teaching for the last ten years and our disciples are very disciplined, that’s why they ask this. Representatives from about 280 temples in China are coming, and we are expecting 10,000 people to gather in the Hong Kong Sports Stadium on that day.
I am involved with a University in Shanghai which on opening invited me to be a guest lecturer. In Hong Kong I am teaching a master degree subject on Taoism, at the Polytechnnic University, though the students are not Taoist. Just they want to know the culture and that’s what they are studying.
Eduardo Gozalo: Anything to add about Taoism?
Lee Yiu-fai: We are human beings with different ideas, different cultures, all different people who think differently. I am human being so still have to eat, have sex, I am not a god… I am 75 already. I have conferences with all religions and when I meet then I joke that you will go up to heaven but I will go to hell. We are all under the same roof that’s why at Wong Tai Sing we worship the stars, we believe there is only one star looking after you, we believe in the universe and among my people we enjoy our life.
I have two hundred disciples and we are one big family. I never say ‘come to the temple’, we can offer good things… No, if you contribute to heaven you will get a reward from the universe. If you don’t contribute, say in environmental protection, how can you expect environment will give something to you… if I offer hospitality to you, then when I go to your country you will offer same to me, it’s a two way street, reciprocal, you offer something good to universe the universe will give something good to you.
Some people ask for good fortune or health, so I say, what do you offer – how do you practice your daily life, your business” Don’t use tricky ways of business. I say if you are in financial trouble the gods wont give you money but if you have a question they will answer you. Our Taoism is natural, follow the rules of the universe and this is why this temple is so popular, here it is a clean temple, and you can burn big red candles etc… People like it.
Eduardo Gozalo: You have given us your time and very fine books on Taoism, what do we give to you?
Lee Yiu-fai: Your heart
